Leah Gotcsik: For me, it’s very hopeful to know that you’ve gotten that far from the first. You would think that our first would be, “Yeah, get paid the same as when you write a live action script for kids TV,” and that’s not what it is. And it’s like, “Come on, it’s the same.” But they wouldn’t, right? And we fought as hard as we could to get that foot in the door. There was language we put in the contract that was like, “We’re putting this word in there because we hope it becomes a reality later, but it’s not there now.” It’s like that sort of stuff. So what you’re saying feels very hopeful and, I don’t know, congratulations. It feels like everything you’ve listed is such a clear protection for the folks that work there, right?
Jessica Schulberg: And I think so much of that too is we’ve gotten more effective. I mean, us as a unit have shrank so much. When we organized, we’re about 270 people and now we’re 80s, 90s, all because of layoffs mostly. So we’re smaller, numbers wise, we should be weaker, but we’re not. It’s just so wild to see how instinctive it is for people to organize now. Something happens, one member can get screwed over in some way, and it’s just instant everyone’s like, “Okay, what do we do?” And I think management sees that. They see how cohesive we are and they see how disciplined we are, and it’s become more of the expectation, I think, for management is that they will work with us and that they do have to negotiate in good faith with us. And it’s unimaginable to me that our starting salary now is 67, more than that, probably closer to 70,000 now, which isn’t enough to live in a major city. But like I said, we were getting hired at 20, $25,000 a year, less than 10 years ago. So it really has been pretty transformative.
But Rez, I wanted to talk with you. The nonfiction industry is still largely non-unionized. I think I’d mentioned how it became easier and easier to organize the more digital media shops were organized because you can sort of point to, “Well, those guys have a contract, why wouldn’t you do that?” And we could sort of build on one another’s gains. But when you’re in this stage where you’re looking around and there’s not much to point to, what are some of the challenges there? What are some of the opportunities that that presents in your opinion?
Rez Nemorin: Yes, there was a point where we were looking around and there was this concept of a nonfiction show being unionized was like pigs flying. So first I want to say, Jessica, what your team was able to do, what your committee was able to do is very inspirational as my shop is we’re currently at the table. And just the difference between, again, 2020 to 2024 where other notable nonfiction shops, Story Syndicate, Radical, so many others are having these conversations because we are in need. I grew up or I started developing my career thinking that it wasn’t going to happen. And as I was talking to other crew members, so many who have had 20, 25 years in the nonfiction world, told me, “This is not going to be able to pull off.” Not because they had just had a negative mindset or anything, but because they saw bargains, they saw attempts, several attempts in the past that just ended up unsuccessful. And even I in my career saw an attempt at the same shop that’s attempting again and it was unsuccessful. So I just want to say, Jessica, it’s inspirational.
Nonfiction is a Wild, Wild West. That’s also how I started all my little text messages and conversations with people. Not only are so many of us conditioned to just think that we’re not going to have protection, but also the subjects that we touch, it’s very hard to control. We are trying to capture the action in real time. One of the things I am hoping we get is also support with therapy. Some of the content that we cover is very highly sensitive, whether it’s us following individuals in a jail or talking about traumatic stories or things that people have overcome, to take on all of this information, whether you’re sorting out the script or coordinating the shoot, you still have to hear your subject’s story, you still take that on. And then what do you do when you clock out? Who else can you turn to?
So I was presented with challenges with individuals who just did not believe that it was attainable. I was presented with challenges with individuals who were on the shop, but no longer at the shop. There’s always moving around. You could work on a nonfiction project for four months and then move on to something else. It really depends on what the subject is. Some things are very short, some things are very long. Challenges on understanding positions and roles so that we can really get our organizational chart. Nonfiction shop needs a story producer here, but then could just need an AP there. And depending on what the show is, the story producer and the associate producer are kind of doing the same work.
So there was a lot of the challenge of streamlining all that we have under our umbrella. But what it brought us was transparency, which is what I’m loving, where we can say that, “This person got paid that much on here, but then this over here is getting paid that much.” Or we got the transparency where people were realizing that, “I was working on two shows at once and no one gave me any form of support, additional pay. There was not a sense of clarity on where my start and end day was. There wasn’t any breaks.” There was a lot of transparency on what individuals are facing when it comes to childcare and trying to have a family or support your family, at the same time supporting something so demanding. Because in the nonfiction world, something that happens in the news can change your storyline, something that’s happening to your characters, weather events, so much can shift your storyline where now what’s looking like a 12 hour day in front of your computer is turning into 14, 15, 16 hours. But then who supports us?
So there was some challenges because for so many people it just was out of mind, out of sight, and this is how the industry is going. I’m so happy that I was able to set change. And even though there’s probably layoffs and things, shrinking, shows not coming back, I had to tell everyone that I was reaching out to to get on board, to, “Sign your card.” I had to let them know that what’s inspiring me is that I want to make this workplace better for the next person just like me. Because I had hard days and everyone told me to suck it up because this is the world of nonfiction, especially because this is the world of nonfiction. And me peeking over the fence, “Maybe I’ll have a safer life if I make it to fiction.” But no, I am worthy of protection, security, and support no matter what form of media I’m touching. So I’m so happy I was able to support my shop and finalize our negotiations as soon as possible.
Jessica Schulberg: Absolutely. Nothing makes me happier than when younger members who were not here for an un-unionized HuffPost come in and they’re like, “I’m only making $70,000 a year.” And I’m like, “Hell yeah.” Because I just feel like I think our generation was so brought up to just be so grateful for a job and just get in there and shut up and just be grateful for what you have, and it could all disappear. And it is cool to see people who come up through a unionized place. They are grateful for the opportunity to do meaningful work that matters to them, but they also have this expectation of safety and protection and equity, and I think that’s wonderful.
Leah Gotcsik: You used some great words, which I think are so clear, like uniformity, transparency, worthiness, all of those are what we all should have, right? And I think especially in creative pursuits, we’re told to be grateful for the opportunity. Even at the highest level, “A million people could have your job,” whatever it is. They could, yes. And also, that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t have reliable healthcare. It doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t have paid transparency so I’m not being paid less than someone who’s doing my same job. It is true that a million people could have my job. And also that doesn’t mean I need to be treated as less than.
I know, especially for us in animation, people would say, “Oh, I thought animation was covered. Why aren’t you covered?” And my answer was always, “Because they didn’t have to. Because they could.” Right? The corporations, including PBS, they chose not to. It was a choice. They chose not to cover us until now, until we mandated it, until we said that we weren’t going to be less than. And even now, and this is why I think what you’re saying is so hopeful to me, Jess, that even now it’s less than. The contract we just negotiated, in order for people to meet the WGA healthcare minimum, they would have to write 10 freelance scripts. You just don’t in a year. You can’t.
So we have a foot in the door now and even that 10 freelance, that’s $45,000 a year to meet the healthcare minimum. So unless you’re a staff writer, which many shows are not organized that way, because they can, within the WGA are still less than in terms of getting that coverage. We’re foot in the door. But I’m hoping that as we continue these contracts, as we continue to push, we’re going to get all those things so we can get to the point where people are asking those questions of like, “Well, why don’t we have…” This nominal thing, right? And I’m like, “Cool, we can get that because we got to this baseline level of equity across.”
Jessica Schulberg: And that’s such a good point about the companies are going to do whatever they can get away with, and so it’s on us to make it so that they can’t get away with it anymore. And I think you said up at the top, it’s not like the union’s just going to come in and give you this protection. We are the union. Our contract and our protections or whatever we’re able to pull off. Which makes me think of a particularly impressive thing that animation folks were able to pull off with the strike pledge.
I was wondering if you could talk about that at all, Leah, just kind of whenever I think early unionizing conversations start, some of the first things I hear from people are like, “Well, I don’t want to go on strike. I can’t afford to not work. I don’t want to piss off my boss.” And it can be such a scary word. And yet I think those of us who have been involved in this work for a long time also know that a credible strike threat is really our most powerful tool, and that if we can wield it strategically and make members feel safe and, quote, unquote, “jump in together,” it can be so powerful. So I was wondering if you could speak at all to your experience with that.
Leah Gotcsik: Yeah, I think the PBS negotiation was really interesting to be at the table for because it’s PBS, they want to do the right thing. The shows that we were trying to get covered are shows like Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood, where I’ve written those episodes where we talk about sharing and equity and helping your neighbor and all of these things. And that’s just one of the shows that’s on PBS. And I think it was interesting that they treated it like they were any other company. And we came in, we started with heartfelt letters from the writers of each show and we had testimonials where people were saying, “I don’t have health insurance. My family doesn’t have health insurance. But I believe in the show that I’m writing for, and so I’m writing for it. I have to work two shows because this show speaks to my truth and this show gets me health insurance,” right? It’s stuff like that where people were really sacrificing themselves because they believed so much in the work.
We read all these letters, we sent all these testimonials, they were unmoved. And if you’ve ever felt, when you have your coworkers, whose lived truth is making these shows, what they are, be stonewalled, it’s a hard thing take. And as a result, I think it really galvanized people. And what we realized was going to move the needle was pressure, collective pressure. We tried to get every show, we tried to get every person, and not only people that were writing for PBS, but people across the industry. We had great support from TAG writers. We had great support from other writers in the animation industry.
The other key piece I would say too, and this is a long-winded answer, but the other key piece about it was we weren’t just at the table alone. We were at the table with the documentary writers who write for all of the other PBS shows. It was the power of all of these animation writers coming and saying, “We have no protections. You could blackball us. We have no protections. But we are going to say we’re going to strike.” But it was also those doc writers who had been at this for… This was their nth contract negotiation, but they kept standing with us to say, “We are not going to back down. This is important for you.”
It’s happened before where animation’s one of the first things that gets cut out of a WGA contract. And they said, “No, we’re standing with you until the end.” And even to where at the end where we were like, “Maybe we should just give,” they said no. And that was super powerful because these were people who they were the empathy that we weren’t getting from the other side, and also from the council. The council came in and really kind of laid it out and said, “We struck before, we’re going to strike again.” And I think all of that collective feeling helped us, helped everyone say, “We are going to strike and we really mean it.”
We got all sorts of doc writers from across the PBS universe to sign on to support, and that was powerful, and that is what moved the needle. That is, when we kept standing on that to the, whenever it was, 2:00 AM on our very last day of bargaining, we were past the time where we were supposed to go on strike and we said, “We’re in good faith, let’s keep going,” that’s when we finally enough of a movement to be able to say, “Okay, this is what we’re going to do.” But the idea of a strike was scary, but PBS had to believe and it had to be reported in the news, right? Also, it needed to be shared out. But they had to believe we were going to do it. And they did.
I mean, there was a great moment where I think it was like 11:00 at night, a writer who was writing on a show texted and said, “Just so you know, I told my producers that tomorrow I’m pencils down, so they better reassign my stuff.” And she hadn’t necessarily even been involved like day to day in negotiations, but it was that type of, “We are all in this together,” feeling that allowed us to get where we are for sure.
Jessica Schulberg: I just love how you talk about how gradual it is. I think because strikes are usually the only part of the organizing and the negotiating process that make it into the news. So I think it can seem from outsiders like, “Okay, we asked for some stuff, we didn’t get it. So now we’re on strike.” And it’s funny, I actually have to go straight into this, into a bargaining committee training for new bargaining committee members, and two of my favorite slides in this training are things that you touched on. One is that you always have to think about who’s not in the room and whose needs aren’t being represented so that you can be extra mindful that you don’t accidentally trade away or abandon the needs of those… I think parental leave is a really good example.
On one of our earlier contracts, we kind of blew it on parental leave, to be honest. We asked for it, we didn’t get it, but we didn’t really ask for it consistently or long enough. And I think management just knew we didn’t have a credible action campaign around it and we didn’t make any improvements to it. And it was a huge miss. And I think part of it was because we didn’t have any parents on the committee and we didn’t have parents on the committee because being on committee is super, super time consuming. And that sort of haunted me for a while, but also really informed how I think of bargaining and coming up with contract proposals now.
So always thinking of, “You can’t just abandon the people who aren’t there, the loudest voice at the table.” And then also just how gradual it is. The stuff does start with these very earnest conversations with management. Because I think a lot of people believe, I’m close friends with a lot of our managers, and I think it can be sort of stunning to see when you come and you tell these people, “My family is on the brink of financial ruin, one accident, one illness, and we’re done,” and then just seeing complete stonewalling. It’s really upsetting and disappointing, but it’s also very radicalizing.
And then even from there, it’s not like you go straight into a strike. You go into maybe a letter campaign, you go into everyone changing their Slack avatars, everybody wearing their T-shirt at the same time. Maybe you start to do a gradual public thing where everyone tweets the same thing at the same time. Maybe you pitch a news story where you say, “So-and-so progressive company won’t even give their employees health insurance.” And there’s a whole chart, that I’m sure you’ve all seen, of the escalations and at the very, very tippy top of that chart is a strike. But it’s not something that comes out of left field and it’s not something that should ever be unexpected to anybody, whether it’s the workers or management.
Rez Nemorin: Absolutely. I think people know that it’s not an overnight process. And for me, that’s fine because what we’re doing is changing the work habits that have been in this industry since the conception of this industry. So it’s not going to change overnight. It’s just not. And so one of the challenges I feel like I saw was just people understanding that, “Well, it’s going to take some time.” And in the world of nonfiction, “Will I even be around when things are being implemented?” But what helped me push forward, not only the motivation to make the workplace a better place than I experienced, but it was also my WGAE union organizers. If I could shout out Lou and Phil, if that’s possible, thank you. Because when I was frustrated at trying to communicate with my peers and crew members and trying to talk about signing cards, “Are you interested in signing this card? It’s really simple. It’s really simple,” I would turn to them and they will help me figure out the language to get through to individuals.
I don’t think people realize how instrumental WGAE is when it comes to organizing. You’re not going to organize your shop all by yourself. There are trained, informed individuals who will be by your side and who will remind you, inspire you and fill you up and let you know that, “This is hard, but we can make it to the other side.” And also the news component. It’s so easy to be a viewer. I say that to all my friends who are like, “Oh, you do such a cool job.” I’m like, “For you, who are sitting on the couch just clicking a button. For me, I have been trying to find individuals where I’m going to highlight or coordinate travel or work with our archivist team to be like, ‘Is this good? Is that good? We need this image.'”
So it is always harder on the other side. So when it is exposed on the news that, “Hey, your favorite show, Food That Built America is barely feeding its crew,” that brings a whole third party of supporters that even the production house has no clue about, which is the viewers. This is a B2C business. You understand? We’re creating something for our consumers, and if our consumers or our stakeholders or people who are on other side who we need to watch our shows, who we need to consume our content, is being told that the people behind the veil is tired, exhausted, underpaid, and overworked, that will bring them also on our side of the line. So that brought me a lot of joy, the news component and letting people know like, “Hey, did you see this article? This is what work looks like for me,” that helped, yeah.
Jessica Schulberg: I love that. I am so happy to be talking about all this with you guys because I think it’s really easy to sort of get in the weeds on the nuts and bolts of your individual workplace, your individual contract. But it’s also really, I think, important to step back and just look at what a privilege and almost responsibility it is to be a union member at this particular time in America. Something that our executive director said recently that stuck with me is that just being part of a union is really the only organized way that working people can pool money and resources and efforts to build power. And we know that rich people have so many ways of doing that and are doing so.
Rich people organize quite effectively. They’re directly lobbying the Supreme Court. They’re passing laws. And only about 10% of Americans are lucky enough to be in a union, and that number is actually getting smaller, and it’s getting harder and harder to organize and to be in a union. So I think it’s important to also step back and look at what a privilege it is to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, bigger than our workplace, and just be in a place that does have the specific goal of creating safety and equity for you, your friends, your co-workers, and people that you’re never, ever going to necessarily meet in your life.
Rez Nemorin: Exactly. To be an active union member for me is being on the forefront of change. And I’m just so proud, so happy. I might just be a grain of sand in history, but I know that I was able to be on the forefront of change in this industry where in this time, not only what’s going on in America, but content is king. So I’m so just proud to be part of this movement.
Leah Gotcsik: I just want to echo that. One of the reasons I work in children’s television is that I want to help the next generation of children think and learn and grow and give them the tools for success. And I think also now being a union member, there’s an additional layer to that, which is I want to help this generation think and learn and grow and give them the tools to success. And I feel like both of those are equally important legacies going forward. The idea that we can put out content that is meaningful, but also, the process of creating that content is meaningful and equitable and powerful as well.
Speaker 4: OnWriting is a production of the Writers Guild of America East. The series is produced by WGA East staff members, Jason Gordon, Tiana Timmerberg, and Molly Beer. Production, editing and mix by Giulia Hjort. Original music by Taylor Bradshaw. Artwork designed by Molly Beer. To learn more about the Writers Guild of America East, visit us online at wgaeast.org or follow the guild on all social media platforms @WGAEast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star rating. Thanks for listening. Until next time, write on.
