Suzan-Lori Parks: I forgot your question. I got excited. [crosstalk 00:17:34]
Geri Cole: We were talking about the structure, and also, I feel like I’m going to add in to this question. As you were adapting, of those interviews, like the interview that sort of kicks us off, how much of that was fictionalized and you felt like you had to check back in, sort of using that as a frame?
Suzan-Lori Parks: Right, right. Yeah. That was the frame. And then inside it is the frame of another kind of interview, which is a more, you could say, hostile interview. So I started with the thread of the interview situation where the FBI is interviewing Billie. I’m sorry, Billie at the end, by the time we get to the hospital room, they’re interviewing Billie. But in the beginning, it’s an interview with one of Billie’s friends, Tallulah Bankhead, and then it’s an interview with Miss Freddy. And then Lester Young, “Pres,” her horn player. And they’re trying to extract this information and nobody will tell.
And finally, Louis McKay, her husband, which is historically accurate, is the one who gives her up. Again, context is everything. They had him by the short hairs and he could have stood tall, but he couldn’t that day. And they got to him and he gives her up. And then when they’re in the hospital room demanding names and things of her, she refuses. She stands strong or is strong. She can’t stand at that point. And then the interviews with the character Reginald are more just to give it this kind of context just to give the viewer a way in.
Geri Cole: Okay. I really like talking about the idea of success because I feel like it’s one of those things where I’m always like, “Am I in it? Am I in the success? What does it look like? Could someone tell me what it looks like? And then I’ll be sure.” So I’m curious, especially also, I’d like to talk about the idea of Billie the character, but also maybe Billie the real woman, what you think her idea of success might have be. And then also following that with what your idea of success is now, and if that’s changed over the years.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Hmm. I’m thinking. What would Billie’s idea of success be? It’s interesting. I think being able to do what she wants, sing what she wants, I’m going out on a limb here, I’m making it up. The answers are all written on the wall over there, you understand, that’s what I’m looking at. But maybe success for Billie would be to be seen for who she is. To be seen for who she is, I think, instead of characterized as, labeled as such. All the things they called her, all the ugly things they called her. To be seen actually for who she is. Yeah. Maybe it would include at that time to be able to live where she wanted to live, to be able to use the elevator that she would like to, that she would choose to. To drink out of the water fountain that she would prefer. You know what I’m saying? Things like that, I think. That might’ve been what success looked like to Billie Holiday.
And to, it’s funny how it might be similar. Well, because as writers, to be able to write what I want and make a living at it. I mean, these are simple things. To be able to speak my truth. And perhaps also, if I’m lucky, I’m looking outside, the truth of my people or part of the truth of my people, since I am a part of my people, and to have that embraced. To be seen for who I am. I know that there’s a cultural reckoning going on around the world. We know that. And a lot of my friends, my non BIPOC friends say, “Gee, we’re having to learn, they’re doing all this anti-racism training and great, awesome, awesome, perfect.” And for us, for people of color, we are going through a reckoning also because we are having to learn not to take that stuff anymore. And that kind of behavior is unacceptable. Where perhaps in a country where we have been told the way to get ahead is to be a good Negro, whatever that means. You know what I’m saying?
Let’s just say to say, “Yes, sir,” for example. Okay. Maybe now we’re waking up and realizing maybe I should not be saying “yes, sir” to that person who is not treating me with the respect that they are demanding of me. Maybe there’s another conversation that needs to happen. And how do I have that conversation and get home safely? So this is success. This is success.
Geri Cole: Yeah. I was like, it hasn’t changed that much.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Well, that’s a truth that could bring us down. Could. Doesn’t have to. Just because things haven’t changed in the way we hope they would, doesn’t mean that we’re not on the right path. I’m discovering that, Geri, for the first time, as I tell it to you. These aren’t canned things I’m saying. I’m just in it. And it’s something that you have to tell yourself as a writer on the page. I mean, how many times, there you are like, “It’s a mess,” but it doesn’t mean that you’re on the wrong path. It just means that you’re having difficulty. And what you need to do is, what do we do? We ask for help. We stay the course, we pray, we breathe. We practice loving kindness to the very thing that seems to want to knock us down. Because if we can practice loving kindness to it, then maybe it won’t trigger us as much. Anyway, I have a whole storehouse of, yeah.
Geri Cole: I would really like to unpack that, but also, I want to make sure we leave time for audience questions. And I have a few more that I want to get through. I feel like I have to ask you about being a student of James Baldwin.
Suzan-Lori Parks: I have his picture back there. Oh, you can’t see it from here. Anyway, his picture’s on the wall.
Geri Cole: I read that he said about you, hold on, let me find this quote. “An utterly astounding and beautiful creature who may become one of the most valuable artists of our time.”
Suzan-Lori Parks: Yeah. Yeah. And I was 18 or 19 years old. It’s a lot to hear it out loud. Because I was 18 or 19 years old in his class, his creative writing class, the first creative writing class that he had taught, ever, he said. So there we were, 15 students and I was a really hard worker and I was very respectful because my parents… Sorry, this is silly.
Geri Cole: That’s okay. No, it’s not silly.
Suzan-Lori Parks: So when I was in fourth grade, I told my mom and dad, “I want to be a writer.” I didn’t know any writers. I’d never met a writer, nothing. I just, I felt the call, I want to be a writer. So my parents, for Valentine’s day, my mom and dad it’s all their fault. They gave me a copy of The Fire Next Time. And so on the back of The Fire Next Time, there was a photograph of James Baldwin. Handsome headshot kind of thing. So fast forward 10 years later, I’m in his class. And I was so respectful and shy, but very hardworking. And when he wrote that, he had to write evaluations for the students instead of grades. And I got the evaluation in the mail. It’s written, I have it framed on my wall, and I did not have the heart to prove him wrong.
Yeah. Sorry. There is no crying in screenwriting. There’s no crying in screenwriting. No, I think there is. But I learned so much from him. I only took one semester. It was creative writing. We were writing short stories at the time. He suggested I get into drama because I was very I was very dramatic. Crying, cheering, all this kind of stuff. And I wouldn’t have got into dramatic writing if it hadn’t been for his suggestion. I would have been writing novels. I’ve written a novel, I love novel writing, but wouldn’t have gotten into dramatic writing. And he really taught me how to be respectful to the spirit. The great spirit that for me in my process, I don’t know about you, Geri, but in my process, the spirit guides me. I have this tattoo on my arm, [inaudible 00:26:34], which means submit your will to the will of the spirit. And that is my guiding light there. Now you know everything about me.
I believe you’ve read that James Baldwin quote.
Geri Cole: Are you kidding me? I can’t even. I was like, I have to ask her about it. This is incredible.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Such a generous teacher. He was just so generous, and yeah.
Geri Cole: So I have an audience question about if you have any plans to return to Broadway.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Yes. Next year, if the theaters open. Dear theaters, hope everybody stays safe and everything, but some wonderful producers and I are working on a revival of Top Dog Underdog. It will have been 20 years. So we’re putting it together. So hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah.
Geri Cole: Oh, that would be amazing. Actually, that leads me to a question that I meant to ask earlier, which is since you are an accomplished novelist and playwright and screenwriter, is it all the same once you sit down or do you sort of take different approaches when you are writing in a different forum?
Suzan-Lori Parks: Yeah. That’s a great question, Geri. It’s like the difference between corduroy and velvet. So if you were to close your eyes and touch the fabric, corduroy would have the little ridges, and velvet would be smooth. So I can tell just by the vibrations, if you will, of the project, if it should be a film or a teleplay or a play or a novel. It feels different. The wavelengths, I guess. The wavelengths are different. The experience I’m having is different. It’s funny, a film is like, I’m more back, literally watching a big screen, even though, of course, we watch everything now on our iPads and phones and whatnot, but I still have the feeling as if I were in a cinema watching a big screen and it’s a two-hour experience.
And we know what that means. It resolves itself in two hours, or two hours and 27 minutes or whatever, or three hours. It’s film length. And with a teleplay, again, I can actually see it on a smaller screen, perhaps. I can feel the act breaks and it resolves itself. It’s a much longer story arc. So I can actually feel the vibrations. A novel is a different feeling and a play is a different feeling, again. So I can sort of feel incoming and what they want to be, sort of. Yeah.
Geri Cole: Do you feel like they inform each other at all? But I guess no, if it feels like it’s just the way the story wants to be told.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Yeah. I think that’s exactly right, Geri. It’s the way the story wants to be told. The story has their own ideas and not to say that, of course, that I could write a novel and then have it adapted into a film later on or whatever, sure. But its first incarnation, it has some ideas about what it wants to be. And I honor those ideas, those vibrational impulses from the story itself. Again, it’s a very respectful relationship with the story.
Geri Cole: Hmm. So then can you talk a little bit about your process? Do you sit down to write at the same time every day? Do you have a ritual of any kind that you feel comfortable sharing?
Suzan-Lori Parks: Uh-huh (affirmative). Oh, yeah. I have a very elaborate ritual. A very elaborate ritual, Geri. I sit my ass down and write. That’s my ritual. Really. Sit my ass down, I either open a notebook if I’m writing long hand or open my laptop. Again, my apartment’s very tiny and I live here with my son and my husband, and so it is always alive and bustling with activity, especially now that our son has remote schooling. So it’s very crackling, but I focus very energetically and joyfully on the task. If I get a start in the morning, I can sometimes go all day, unless I get a chance to talk with people, which is always more fun.
Geri Cole: Okay. Well we have a few more moments and if anyone has any more questions that they want to throw in, please feel free to throw into the Q&A now. But another question that I am always curious about is do you have any hard-won lessons you’d like to share? And by that, I mean is a thing that you appreciate now that you really wish you had appreciated before.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Hmm. You know, I tend to be kind of shy, so I think friendship is something. I mean, I always appreciate a friendship. I never had many friends, but I love friends in the field, whether they be other writers or producers or musicians. I think friends who are people you can call on is very important. Especially when the writing process can be solitary. When you’re producing, like we’re making Genius Aretha, I’m on set every day and all that, the joyous cacophony of everything. But friendship, I think. And I think, well, I’ve always respected my daily practice, but I think it’s worth reminding people that that is a very important aspect of writing. Your daily practice, your daily writing practice. A daily meditation practice. I teach at NYU, I suggest to my students, if you don’t have one, start one. It can be very helpful. And again, releasing the triggers so you can have more space. Regardless of what the man is doing, you can create space for yourself.
Geri Cole: Hmm. That is very good advice. I’m like, I do need a daily meditation practice.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Yeah. It’s so simple. You can sit on a meditation cushion or in a chair, whatever’s comfortable. I like to use, now I’m getting into my shit, but I like to use a timer. I don’t use my phone because you know your phone is crack. So if you want to just set it for five minutes or 10 minutes or 20 minutes and you just sit there and allow the thoughts to come and go, is very helpful to creating because just the hassles of being a black person in America can easily derail us and often do. And I do think it’s very important for us to have a spiritual practice.
Geri Cole: Hmm. Okay. I’ve got a few more audience questions actually. And this one ties in nicely to what we were just talking about, which is a practical question about how do you balance the scheduling and business of playwriting versus show running a TV show?
Suzan-Lori Parks: I know. It’s exciting. I’ve found that I can write many different things. Not at the same time, but I can work on a teleplay in the morning and work on a play in the afternoon. What’s great about working for TV is that usually they let you alone on the weekend, so weekends are real, you know what I mean? So I get a lot of playwriting done on the weekends. I’m very mindful of my time, big list maker.
Also, just to shout out, I suspended it for a little while, but I do a show through the public theater called Watch Me Work, which is a free writing workshop, open to anybody who wants to come, any level of writing, any level of experience, whatever. It’s totally free. I’ve been on hiatus for the past few months as we tried to lock Genius Aretha, but in a couple of months, I’ll be starting up again, so the people can check out the public theater website and it’s called Watch Me Work. And all we do is like this. We Zoom, we sit there and I talk to you about your writing process. So it’s not about me and my work. I mean, this is really great because I get to talk about my process. But generally, I talk to the audience about, how are you doing? How’s your work going? How can I help you untangle that tangle-y bit in your process? So, yeah.
Geri Cole: Awesome. I will be signing up.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Please do. Right on, brother.
Geri Cole: So we’ve a couple more audience questions. This one says, “it was a beautiful memory of James Baldwin. Thank you so much for sharing that. Can you share any exercises he may have assigned that stayed with you or a surprising response that he had to a piece of writing?”
Suzan-Lori Parks: He didn’t share any writing exercises to me, not with me. Again, I was ready to do the work, so he didn’t have to encourage us. I think pretty much everybody in the class was. It was James Baldwin. We were ready. He was teaching creative writing. We were present. You know what I mean? But I mean, that’s the thing. When he said “Ms. Parks, have you ever thought about writing for the theater?” And I was like, “what?” I didn’t like theater. I was like, “theater is where people talk ‘la-di-da, darling.'” I was not into theater at all, but I did give it a try and started dramatic writing from there.
But also, he had a great ability to… Someone would come into class and they have something written and they think they were all that and everything. They’d be reading. And he would just, he’d see right through your best bullshit. Man, you could not pull anything on him. He was not impressed. You know what I’m saying? When you were trying to pull a number on him, he was so respectful. In my experience of him, he was so respectful of true heart and hard work.
Geri Cole: Hmm. Okay, I’ve got another question. Says, “My writing partner and I have been working and learning our craft for the last 11 years. We are an interracial writing team. I just read Mr. Baldwin’s 11 most famous quotes. Thank you for the inspiration and explaining your experience, helping me understand myself better. The white guy on the team.” I guess it’s more of a statement.
Suzan-Lori Parks: We love you, bro. Hey, we need more good people, all colors and genders and on all continents. So thank you for being a good person.
Geri Cole: It takes all of us.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Sure does. It sure does, Geri.
Geri Cole: Well, I think that’s about all the time that we have. Thank you so much.
Suzan-Lori Parks: That went by fast. That was so fun. [crosstalk 00:37:08] Will you guys call me back for when I do Genius Aretha? Because it’s like next month. Okay. And I so want to talk about it and I didn’t want to not talk about Billie. I love Billie, love Lee Daniels, love Andra Day, Trevante Rhodes. Oh my God. It was so great making that project with them.
Geri Cole: Oh yeah. I wanted, actually, to talk about her performance, which was amazing.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Amazing. Right, girl? She brought the neighborhood. That’s what I said.
Geri Cole: And this was like her first performance. Really? I was like, “she better win that award.”
Suzan-Lori Parks: She better win something. But I mean, it’s her genius and Lee Daniel’s genius. He can get performances out of people. He’s got this ability to really work brilliantly with actors. So her credit and his credit also.
Geri Cole: So yes, we absolutely will be asking you back next month to talk about that project.
Suzan-Lori Parks: That’d be fun.
Geri Cole: Thank you so much for sharing yourself so openly and talking with us. It’s really been-
Suzan-Lori Parks: Thank you, Brett. This was fun.
Geri Cole: … an amazing time.
Suzan-Lori Parks: Okay, bye. Thank you.
Geri Cole: Thank you so much. It was so lovely meeting you.
That’s it for this episode. OnWriting is a production of the Writers Guild of America East. Tech production and original music is by Stock Boy Creative. You can learn more about the Writer’s Guild of America East online at wgaeast.org. And you can follow the Guild on social media @wgaeast. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and rate us. I’m Geri Cole. Thank yo
